I noticed this has been touched on in a few other threads but thought some of you might be up on expanding your defense of either movie. Both films are often compared due to the very similar lead character triangle, writer, director, etc., but what about the execution?
Which film do you think is superior overall? - Better script? - Better lead? - Better support (e.g., Annie Potts VS. Elias Koteas)? - Holds up better over time?
To be absolutely clear, this does not necessarily presupposed that one of the movies is bad. I love both, but heaping amounts of praise and friendly criticism is the plasma that runs through many healthy forums.
Thanks!
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kevdugp73
He's eating after dark again....
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I grew up watching Pretty In Pink and have always loved it. Our beloved Molly, and what can I say....I love the Duck Man. A great villian in Mr Spader, the beautiful villianess, Ms Vernon, who doesn't love Harry Dean Stanton, Annie did a great job, and an 80's movie with Andrew Dice Clay!
Also, the soundtrack introduced me to Echo's "Bring On The Dancing Horses", and the Smith's "Please please please..."..."If You Leave" by OMD, the title track by the Furs....all good stuff.
I thought the character developement was great as at points in the movie, I genuinley felt the sorrow of several characters...Mr Walsh's downward spiral after the loss of his true love, Iona's desperate search for love, Steff's obvious realization that money isn't everything, and the poor Duck Man...even though they hooked him up with the beautiful Ms Swanson at the end, and even though I didn't really see him and Andy together...to love someone so much and not have it returned....ouch...that hurts. All this without even mentioning the main characters.....
* I will say one thing though...I missed out on "Some Kind Of Wonderful" when I was young, and have only seen it semi recently with a push from the Rewind. Certainly loved the movie, but we all know the power of watching something in your impressionable years...hard to buck. In fairness, I'd like to watch SKOW again, as I've only seen it once (actually had it in hand last night, but after watching American Pickers, knew the movie would be well past me bedtime). I aim to re-watch SKOW very soon, though remain doubtful it will ever surpass my love for Pretty In Pink.
* Now this will get some blood boiling...given that Pretty In Pink was first on the scene...isn't SKOW simply a lesser known rip off...I mean...they even stole the title track (PIP) to put on their soundtrack...shameless. Hee hee hee haa haa haa hoo hoo hoo.....hum. Oh...yes I did!
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The ending to PIP was changed after less-than-favorable critical reviews from test audiences. So the movie isn't what John Hughes ever wanted.
SKOW, on the other hand, has the proper, Hughes approved, intended plot from start to finish. So not a rip off in any way. If anything, PIP is a failed draft of SKOW.....
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Right from the start, I'm a boy, and I identify with Stoltz's Keith much better than Ringwald's Andie. The story of Some Kind of Wonderful just suits me better overall.
The relationship between Andie and Blaine seemed awkward and there is a lot of overreaction going on. It seemed unnatural in many ways and the tension forced.
The relationship between Keith and Amanda seemed to have the correct amount awkwardness. She was the object of his desire, put up on a pedestal, and once he got to know her, of course she didn't meet his high expectations. The first date was bound to be a mess, but it worked out for both of them in the right ways.
Pretty In Pink does have one biggie over SKOW, and that is James Spader. I'm a huge Steff fan, and the character is one of my favorites of all 80s movies. That is all thanks to Spader's portrayal. Perfection.
Craig Sheffer is really good as Hardy Jenns, and it is also a great sleazy character, but nobody can match up against Spader's Steff. Good performance by Sheffer though, I can't complain at all.
I'm a big fan of Harry Dean Stanton, but I will admit, he doesn't have much to work with here and doesn't shine as much as usual.
I prefer Keith's father, played by John Ashton. "Where's the f*cking money, Keith!" is a classic line for me. I love this performance.
Duckie is a wonderful character, and definitely elevates PIP as a whole. John Cryer is amazing in this role and it's arguably one of the most memorable performances in 80s teen movies. Duckie is much loved.
I'm neutral to Annie Pott's character, Iona. A friend that was more Andie's age could have possibly enhanced the story more.
Keith's two sisters are the best. His teenage sis, Laura, is credible. There's a good balance of love/hate going on there. The youngest sister, played by Candace Cameron, is very cute and delivers some classic lines at the family dinner table.
The way Blaine dealt with his friends and Andie was pretty wimpy. Like I said earlier, I didn't believe all this struggle and stress, it was very awkward. Maybe it was the writing, maybe it was the acting.
On the other hand, I thought Lea Thompson handled her friends and scuzzy ex-boyfriend in a manner more realistic. The party scene is over the top, of course, but overall nothing out of the ordinary here. She did a good job portraying the struggle between being who she is and what her friends want her to be.
Let's talk about Watts AKA Drummer Girl. What a woman! That opening sequence with her on the drums, playing to 'Abuse' by Propaganda, is one of my favorite movie openings. She's got the attitude and that kiss between Keith and her - whoa! It is a great character and Mary Stuart Masterson is almost as good as John Cryer in this similar role.
The soundtracks for both films are top-notch. I prefer SKOW's because I identified with the music better and therefore listened to it more growing up. That being said, I can't deny the greatness that is Pretty In Pink's soundtrack. It's legendary and deserves the praise it gets.
At the end of the day, Some kind Of Wonderful just holds up better for me. I prefer the storyline, characters, and music to that of Pretty In Pink.
edit: I should add that I saw both movies at around the same time as youngster, so the sentimental favorite element doesn't come into play for me.
[ 12. January 2011, 11:04: Message edited by: Secret Admirer ]
Posts: 929 | From: Deb to Tone | Registered: Dec 2004 | Site Updates: 37
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quote:Which film do you think is superior overall? - Better script? - Better lead? - Better support (e.g., Annie Potts VS. Elias Koteas)? - Holds up better over time?
I prefer PiP, but it only wins by 1/8th of a second! They're both GOLD! Choosing one or the other is like being asked to pick which eye you'd rather lose!
quote:- Better script?
I think SKoW has better dialogue - it's snappier. But it could be argued that the dialogue is too clever, and therefore unrealistic. It also lacks some of realistic awkward pauses that appear in PiP throughout the movie.
But having said that, I would still go with SKoW for best script (by just a little).
quote:- Better lead?
Ringworm does more with her emotional range, which is both a good and a bad thing. In terms of likability, I'm gonna have to go with Stoltz rather than Molly. So SKoW wins again.
quote:- Better support (e.g., Annie Potts VS. Elias Koteas)?
If it came down to Annie vs Elias, I think the fight would go SKoW again. But it isn't. For PiP we have: Spader; the bitchy girls; Annie; Harry Dean Stanton; Andrew Clay. For SKoW we have; the sister; Elias; Scheffer; the dad. These things are coming up soooo close, and I find the sister really funny and Elias great, but I'm going to give it to PiP. Those girls were on the nose for me as far as bitches go.
quote:- Holds up better over time?
I think they both hold up well, and I think modern teens would like them both. There are strikes against PiP in terms of holding up, and they are; the songs on the soundtrack are well-known songs from the era, which dates it more than the relatively obscure tracks from SKoW. Second; the fashions - when PiP was made the preppy look and the thrift store look was still in, but by the time of SKoW that had softened, and the indie rock looks of blue jeans and leather jackets had started a comeback. Since jeans and leather are semi-timeless, I think that might date PiP a little more.
quote:To be absolutely clear, this does not necessarily presupposed that one of the movies is bad. I love both, but heaping amounts of praise and friendly criticism is the plasma that runs through many healthy forums.
This is a contentious issue!
quote:The ending to PIP was changed after less-than-favorable critical reviews from test audiences. So the movie isn't what John Hughes ever wanted.
Ok... good so far...
quote:SKOW, on the other hand, has the proper, Hughes approved, intended plot from start to finish. So not a rip off in any way. If anything, PIP is a failed draft of SKOW.....
Ok, that's it! I've sat on my hands... I've hummed and put fingers in my ears... I've looked the other way... but I've had all I can stand and I can't stands no more!
Hughes admitted that the chemistry between Molly and Jon had been wrong, and also that he hadn't convincingly made the audience want Molly to be with Jon - because he'd come across like a geeky lovesick puppy (my words - not Hughes'). I happen to think that the re-written ending is one of the best parts of PiP, with these minor quibbles: Andrew looks sick (lovesick?), Duckie breaks the fourth wall (ok I love that, but it is a weakness), Duckie gets a cute girl (I love that too, but it's tokenistic). I'm not sure it could be considered a "failed draft" just because the ending needed to be changed. A lot of films are fixed in production, because things seldom work out as planned. "Failed draft" implies PiP didn't work as a cohesive movie - which it did. Look at it this way; SKoW was written with Molly in mind for the part of Amanda, but she refused to do it. Do we then consider SKoW abortive because the part Hughes had written for Molly to play was played by someone else? SKoW isn't - on casting grounds alone - the movie Hughes wanted either, but is it weaker for that?
Yes, PiP didn't end the way he wanted, but the ending is (as far as I can tell) better than the one he'd written originally (and it made more sense). So to me, the film became stronger for going against Hughes initial vision. In the interest of balance, I could easily point out that in his need to reinforce the oddball sidekick being attractive and wanting the audience to root for her in SKoW, we ended up with a sidekick that would be (in real life) almost impossible to overlook; she's beautiful, stylish, individual, witty, loyal, strong, etc. For every girl who ever thought that Molly was sucker for not picking Duckie, there are guys who couldn't believe that Keith would spend the whole movie basically overlooking Watts. Yes, we have suspension of disbelief, but the reality is; guys like Duckie do get rejected by the objects of their affection (at least in high-school) girls like Watts seldom do. If I sound like I'm trying to tear SKoW a new one - I'm not. I love it, but it's verrrry easy to get nit-picky where personal preference is concerned.
Finally, I shall end with; I agree that SKoW is not a rip-off. I've made jokes about that before. But you have to admit (as you did above), that it is at the very least a re-write. Without the 'flawed' ending of PiP, there would be no SKoW (at least not the same). They are connected.
Why does there always have to be a shootout between the two? There's room in my top ten for both.
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Muffy Tepperman
Leopard-print Leotard Wearer.....
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quote:Originally posted by P a u l: One more time......
The ending to PIP was changed after less-than-favorable critical reviews from test audiences. So the movie isn't what John Hughes ever wanted.
SKOW, on the other hand, has the proper, Hughes approved, intended plot from start to finish. So not a rip off in any way. If anything, PIP is a failed draft of SKOW.....
I've never felt why people think this...even though it's true??? I would have never wanted to see Andie end up with Duckie. The fact Hughes wrote it that way drives me crazy....Andie never expressed any feeling for Duckie other then "you dork....you're annoying me" tell me one line where she says something to Duckie that is even affectionate?
....like Secret Admirer I saw both @ the same time back then....i've always loved both....they are must haves for any 80's lover.
But asked to compare....SKOW is the winner!
PIP- "unnatural and tension forced" agreed....."Keith and Amanda correct amount of awkwardness" agreed.
In the scene where Keith gives her the earrings it still makes me cringe! Amanda's face and crooked smile and Keith's naivety...although I scream at Keith "you stupid dork!!!" it's the correct awkwardness....I love that as an adult this scene bothers me.....because i've lived through relationships....something as a kid I couldn't have understood....how that buildup wasn't there for those teenagers, how truly awkward it was if that makes sense?
I actually loved Iona....but I get what SA says about "a friend more her age" Jena? but maybe she was more just her friend at school that stood up for her when needed.
So yes Keith's family, soundtrack, script, more lovable lead, (and i'm a girl!) an awesome supporting cast.....don't forget Scott Coffey!
make SKOW the clear winner for me.
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quote:Originally posted by Muffy Tepperman: I would have never wanted to see Andie end up with Duckie. The fact Hughes wrote it that way drives me crazy....Andie never expressed any feeling for Duckie other then "you dork....you're annoying me" tell me one line where she says something to Duckie that is even affectionate?
THANK YOU!!! not trying to go off topic here, but i have never understood why anyone wanted duckie with andie??? he was annoying and immature. obviously i am not a duckie fan, like others. jon cryer was definitely good in that role, no doubt.
to be honest, in regards to SKOW... the only issue i had with that movie, was the fact that keith spends the entire movie chasing after amanda, blows his life savings, rounding up a classic car, expensive dinner and has his friends get him access to a romantic place after hours, and does a painting of her, and gets it hung in a museum no less... all this just to impress her. and in a split second at the end of the movie, he runs off with watts... it just never made me believe he really loved her all along.
i am not bashing the movie, i love it very much. and i love the music. just my point of view.. so i guess hughes doesn't win me over in the end there, but i think PIP's ending was perfect.
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Thanks Ronnie for the kudos...haha I am a Duckie fan though...just never thought he should end up with Andie....you're right Cryer was good.
I like what you say Devo with it being like Clueless..the realization...and that kiss early on in the garage there was steam, helped the buildup for me.
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the kiss in the garage was great, and i thought keith's reaction to her pulling away was very cute. the song used in that scene is perfect. i am going to have to listen to the soundtrack again. it's been a while.
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Muffy Tepperman
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Ms. Tepperman... bonus points for bringing up Scott Coffey! I forgot how great he was - especially the fake making out scene.
There are some fantastic points in here. Thanks for sharing everyone and keep it coming.
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kevdugp73
He's eating after dark again....
Member # 5978
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Well, thanks to a minor slip on my front step resulting in some decent lower back strain, and the cortizone needle this morning shoved right into my heel...only until it hits the bone the doctor said...my wife has m proped up with some pillows in bed, gave me BBQ chips and Pepsi for breakfast, and took full reign over our little guy...I was able to watch Some Kind Of Wonderful this morning...my second viewing of the movie.
What can I say....I really like the movie. Though for fun, I will say...cut Amanda's hair just a little bit shorter and....her and Keith are like...twins! And, I agree with an earlier comment about Watts being just a bit too butch...now she's still cute and all, but the hair a bit longer wouldn't have hurt!
Certainly still room for SKOW in my top (15) 80's movies of all time, though, I still prefer PIP by a decent margin, though, it appears I may be the minority here. I actually haven't heard the SKOW soundtrack, but hope to remedy that soon.
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quote:PIP- "unnatural and tension forced" agreed....."Keith and Amanda correct amount of awkwardness" agreed.
Are we talking movie natural, or real life natural? Because to me they're two different things.
I'll come out to bat for PiP again by highlighting one of my favourite scenes... the record shop scene:
Duckie enters and does a silly dance which reinforces him as the character we've already seen; goofy, campy, over the top. Duckie is comedy relief to the audience. Andie starts talking about being stood up, Duckie is confused. Then Blane appears at the window and Duckie gets it:
"Um... Andie?"
In about 30 seconds Duckie goes from being someone we don't take seriously, to being someone we actually feel for more than our heroine. Credit to Jon Cryer's acting, he is totally convincing as someone that has just experienced an emotional punch in the stomach, and suddenly the comic relief is a human being with thoughts and feelings - not just an accessory to the lead's thoughts and feelings.
The dialogue that follows between Duckie and Andie is totally convincing teen dialogue. It's not slick and fast and 'scripted', there's lots of stammering, it's not filled with one-two zingers, with two clever characters out-clevering each other. It's teen dialogue complete with frustration, awkwardness, and desperation. Duckie is confused, hurt, angry, and his words underline that, and Andie's attempts to reason with him don't work - as they shouldn't:
"You're gonna go out with this guy? Is this, like, a date?"
"Yeah. I mean, you'd like him. He's not like the other guys. Seriously."
"No. No way. Andie! You've really p!ssed me off cos they sh!t all over everybody, including you. I just... I can't believe you'd be this stupid!"
"Who's sh!tting on me? I'm not gonna let anybody sh!t on me!"
"He's just... he's gonna use your a$s and throw you away! God, I would have died for you!"
"So what am I supposed to do? He asked me out and I like him - just listen to me! - if I hate him because he's got money, that's the exact same thing as them hating us because we don't. Do you Understand?"
"You can't do this and... and... respect yourself. You... you ju... you can't."
"Well I'll make that decision, all right?"
"Sure, you... you can do what you want!"
"You're talking like that just because I'm going out with Blane."
"Blane? His... his name is Blane?! Oh... that's... that's a major appliance that's not a name!"
"Just because I'm going out with BLANE doesn't mean I can't be friends with you. I mean it doesn't change the way I feel about you."
"Oh, well that's very nice... I'm... I'm glad. Here's... here's the point Andie... I'm... I'm not particularly concerned with whether or not you like me. Cos I live to like you... and... and... and I can't like you any more. So... so when you get your heart splattered all over hell and... and you're feeling really low and dirty, don't... don't look to me to help pump you back up, 'cause... 'cause maybe for the first time in your life I won't be there!"
"I can't believe you're actually saying this."
"I guess that's just tough sh!t!"
He's childish, petulant, angry and hurt, and he says exactly what a teenager would say. And what's more Jon Cryer is completely convincing. Just one of the reasons I love Pretty in Pink.
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Muffy Tepperman
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Good call Logan! I'll give you that! I was assuming the "unnatural and tension forced" was Blaine and Andie..the love interests...and I still feel that way...plus it got worse as you start noticiing Andrew's wig lol the whole end gets ruined a little cause I can't stop staring at his wig!
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kevdugp73
He's eating after dark again....
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Nice one logan...I just shed a tear. That's what I meant earlier about genuinely caring for the characters in PIP. I can honestly say that SKOW was not very emotional for me until the end scene, which I'll admit was nice....but the only time my tear ducts filled and almost overflowethed....and yes....that is a real word!
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one of the most emotional scenes in SKOW for me is when Watts confronts Keith at the club towards the middle of the movie...It's so emotional because you can see how lovesick she is over Keith and how the whole Amanda thing is tearing her apart, but he just doesn't get it.
"Because I'm driving you crazy and you're driving me crazy and I'd rather not see you and have you think good things about me than have you see me and hate me. 'Cause I can't afford to have you hate me, Keith. The only things I care about in this goddamn life are me and my drums and you."
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Muffy Tepperman
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nice Veronica! "my drums and you" that's when I start balling........Duckie was more goofy so you felt more sympathy for him then genuine heartfelt.
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Valley Dated Julie From 'Valley Girl' (allegedly!)
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Don't you people have to work?? I can't keep up with all the discussion.. love it!
The 'my drums and you' is just so awesome Veronica!
Even though both PIP & SKOW have quite similar plots.. I have to go with "Some Kind of Wonderful". As SA mentioned somewhere in all this chatting.. it is probably because I more easily identify with Keith. Plus, I'm a fan of Amanada Jones!
The way I decided was by put both DVDs in my hands and asking myself which one would a let someone borrow .. and in borrow that might mean never seeing it again. - Sorry Duckman..
btw, did everyone know that Molly Ringwald was asked to play Watts first and she turned it down because she felt the script was too close to "Pretty In Pink"?
Posts: 7845 | From: Smiling and glancing in awe in the back of a limo | Registered: Mar 2003 | Site Updates: 22
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quote:"Because I'm driving you crazy and you're driving me crazy and I'd rather not see you and have you think good things about me than have you see me and hate me. 'Cause I can't afford to have you hate me, Keith. The only things I care about in this goddamn life are me and my drums and you."
That is an emotional scene. But I never really understood why Keith didn't notice that Watts was almost falling apart. I was never sure if he was supposed to be unaware of her feelings, or aware of them but ignoring them because he didn't feel the same, or aware of them and partially feeling the same but was too busy being fixated on Amanda Jones. Hmm.
quote:The way I decided was by put both DVDs in my hands and asking myself which one would a let someone borrow .. and in borrow that might mean never seeing it again. - Sorry Duckman..
Neither for me. Like I say... left eye or right eye - which is it gonna be?
quote:btw, did everyone know that Molly Ringwald was asked to play Watts first and she turned it down because she felt the script was too close to "Pretty In Pink"?
I thought she was supposed to play Amanda Jones?
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Valley Dated Julie From 'Valley Girl' (allegedly!)
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Logan.. until recently I thought that same thing about Molly Ringwald and Amanda Jones, but here's a recent quote from Ringwald about John Hughes:
"No. John wanted me to be in Some Kind of Wonderful. I declined because I felt like the script wasn't strong enough and was too derivative of the other films I'd already made with John. He wanted me to play the role of a character called Watts, which went to Mary Stuart Masterson, but I was ready to graduate from high school."
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Ringwald would NEVER have played the Watts role as we know it and would probably have ruined the movie. Thankfully, Ringwald got a touch starstruck, believed her own press cuttings a little too much, and declined to work with the ultimate movie genius of the decade.
The rest, as they say, is history.
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Man I am gonna get lynched here but here goes:
They both sucked.
I hope nobody can track me through my whereabouts through my IP adress or I'm in big trouble.
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kevdugp73
He's eating after dark again....
Member # 5978
quote:Originally posted by Bernie_Lomax: Man I am gonna get lynched here but here goes:
They both sucked.
BLASPHEMER!!!!!!!
quote:Originally posted by Bernie_Lomax: I hope nobody can track me through my whereabouts through my IP adress or I'm in big trouble.
You'd be surprised exactly how close it's possible to get from an IP address.... Posts: 3646 | From: Shermer, IL - where else? | Registered: Mar 2001 | Site Updates: 37
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