I don't know if it was just me, but I found myself rooting for Johnny in the final fight scene. I felt like Danny had gone far enough. He stole away Johnny's girlfriend and now he was going to humiliate him by taking his karate title, after just training for a few months. I was thinking, come on Johnny enough is enough, kick the little guy's butt!
Posted by joker (Member # 3840) on :
i said this befor and i will say this again johnny is what mad this movie the way danial trained for karate made no sence i use to take karate lessons and i did not have to do any the guffy stuff dainal did in the movie my traing was more like the cober kai school secens in the movie/tournment secens in the movie who stands on a log foring karate class
Posted by Karate Kevin (Member # 291) on :
I agree Joker. The training was ridiculous. It also drove me crazy how they made learning karate look like it could be done in a few weeks. Whether you liked Johnny or not, he had oviously studied karate and trained a long time and had become a great fighter. To believe Danny could learn to fight well enough to beat him after training a short time really was an insult to the art. They also implied that by Danny winning the tournament, he had become a better fighter than Johnny. Obviously even after the tournament, Johnny would have killed Danny in a real fight.
Posted by Silverado (Member # 1388) on :
Sorry Kev, but I don´t agree,In the movie Danny had been trainning for many years,but in the wrong way (ymca)he had shown he has the soul of karate when he hit Freddy with the door.But what he needed indeed,was someone to teach him how to let his best karate out and of course to use the opponent strenght in his own benefit
Posted by Karate Kevin (Member # 291) on :
Come on! His training at the Y was just some story Daniel was making up to look tough. If he had training he would have fought better right from the start at the beach. He couldn't fight at all until the tournament - then suddenly magic! I give Daniel credit for getting in the ring and facing his opponents in the tournament, but that's it. He won by a technical call. Bobby or Johhny would have beaten him to death.
Posted by Mrs Larusso (Member # 4417) on :
quote:The training was ridiculous. It also drove me crazy how they made learning karate look like it could be done in a few weeks. Whether you liked Johnny or not, he had oviously studied karate and trained a long time and had become a great fighter. To believe Danny could learn to fight well enough to beat him after training a short time really was an insult to the art.
The whole point of the training as we saw it was to show the viewer exactly what Miyagi was trying to teach Daniel - that the best Karate - and the spirit and soul needed to exhibit the best karate - lies deep inside of us! Its nothing to do really with how skilled you are - its how you use your skill that matters! Yea JoHnny was more acomplished and skilled than Daniel - but like silverado said, he used this skill in the wrong way - and that led to his ultimate defeat.
quote:They also implied that by Danny winning the tournament, he had become a better fighter than Johnny. Obviously even after the tournament, Johnny would have killed Danny in a real fight
Actually, by Daniel winning the tornament, what they were trying to show was that strength of spirit will always win through - come what may. Nothing about skill.
Daniel had waaaaaay more self respect and heart than Johnny at that point. Know why? Because in the scene where Kreese asks Johnny to 'sweep the leg' - what does Johnny feel? What do we see? We see humilty and mercy! - traits that are NOT 'permitted' within the Cobra Kai!! Traits that make you weak in the Cobra Kai!! Therefore, at that point, Johnny feels weak - not worthy. But it is in that moment that he begins to question the morality of his judgements - and those of his mentor. He fights till the end of course, but by that time he has fought himself into a corner - and he finds himself trying to grasp the last shred of dignity he has by trying to beat Daniel.
So whilst Johnny is eluded by self-doubt, Daniel is having the opposite kind of thoughts. He is being 'empowered' as he lies there on the stretcher - thinking how the Kai are not going to get the best of him. He realises he is better than what they have seen. His strength of spirit is what wins through - and that is what we see!
I mean did Miyagi teach Danny the crane? NO!! So he had to find that will within himself! Not from anyone else!! and that is the beauty of Miyagis style of training compared to Kreeses' - it taught Daniel to have faith in his own abilities - something the Kai just didnt have. They were not taught that same inner stength that Daniel was. What they were taught was superficial.
Not to waffle much more (sorry!)...I just want to add that its the same with Barnes in part III - obviously stronger and more skilled than Daniel - but with no clue as the true esscense of karate!! He was dumbfounded by Kata!!
Classic cases of brains over braun.
As for Johnny anyway - also won at the end!! Just as I wanted him too! We see from the very first that he has feelings and is NOT the 'bad guy' he is made out to be. He has real and true feelings for Allie - but Daniel DID NOT steal her at all! It was over way before!! How over? Weeks!! .
It was over because he was taught that fighting and aggression is the only way to self expression - but by the end of the film, Johnny AMAZINGLY AND WONDERFULLY (damn I love this scene!!) - comes over to Daniel and says 'You're alright Larusso!" - HE FINALLY 'GETS IT'!! He 'wins' his freedom from the shakles of kreese ans wins his seld respect.
This is shown also in part II when we see that Johnny is all to happy to be second place to Daniel! He is proud of his trophy because he knows he won to a great and worthy opponant
Maybe you should think the same!
[ 18. May 2006, 16:38: Message edited by: Mrs Larusso ]
Posted by joker (Member # 3840) on :
ok could someon hear show me the floloweing what karate school the ymca excluded in this becouse thats the worse place to train for karate what karate school teaches/askes you to do the floweing gofishing wax a car drive a car with no drivers licens wash a car go out and party the night befor a big tournment stand on a log paint a fence paint a house build a room onto a house babysit play board games play nurf football spend all day at the shopping mall to go shopping what karate studio does this
Posted by Mrs Larusso (Member # 4417) on :
Oh dear....it seems as though you have lost the point of the film completely
*sigh*
OK, i'll spell it out for you.
We did not see all of Daniels training!! Only some of it!! ......and in your list there (if you want to be picky)...where is the scene of Miyagi and Dan on the beach practicing punching? hmmmmmm?
oh and just in case you didnt know - the driving with no licence, partying the night before, playing board games and 'nurf' football, going shopping and going fishing were not a part of the training.
Just thought i'd clear that up because you seem confused.
Posted by Karate Kevin (Member # 291) on :
Thank you for the explanation of the movie Mrs. LoRusso. All I am saying is that like many movies, the end was a bit unrealistic. I have been training in karate for over 10 years, so I can tell you that you don't win a tournament or a street fight against someone like Johnny or Bobby who have been training for many years and have sharp fighting skills. It's not a brains Vs braun argument. Yes Johnny and Bobby were more muscular and physically stronger, but someone skinny and weaker like Daniel could still win a fight against them - but only after years of training. You can argue Miagi's unique methods could make sense, but the training was at the most for a few months.
Posted by Steve (Member # 1933) on :
I watched the tournament scene the other night and when Daniel is fighting Johnny the first 2 points Daniel gets looks like he got them by luck and by Johnnys mistakes. I don't know if this is how the film makers wanted it to look or if thats just how it seemed the other night. Then Johnny got 2 points back with skill then the crane kick again was really a lucky shot and johnnys mistake really by walking straight into it.
I think both Mrs Larusso and Karate Kevin are right. Mrs Larusso right on how Daniel was trained and stuff but Karate Kevin is right if this was in reality and not a movie I have did boxing from a young age to my early 20's and have had many fights both in the ring and out and fighting out of the ring in the street against someone with little or no experience is easier than fighting an experienced fighter I have never lost a fight to anyone in the street but have in the ring.
But at the end of the day Daniel had to win otherwise what was the point of the movie.
Heres 1 little nit pick though why didn't kreese just have Daniel disqualifed as the competion was for brown belt or above and he new Daniel didn't have the proper training I don't know how its done in America but over here it takes a few year to get to black belt level and you get ceritficates to prove it as well. So in the end Kreese could have just had Daniel disqualified and then Johnny would have been the winner then part 2 and 3 probably would have been a cmoplete different story.
P.S. I always root for the Cobra Kai still when I watch it now.
Posted by Karate Kevin (Member # 291) on :
After 10 years of fighting, here is what I believe. In every fight there are 3 factors that impact the outcome. Physical strength, attitude, and technique. Physical strength is always dismissed so lazy guys can avoid the hard work of going to the gym and hitting the weights. In Jabeen's example, the skinny kid had the advantage of some fight training so he had technique, and all of the bullying had created a fighter's winning attitude within him. The jock had the physical strength presumed of an athlete, but that's all. Clearly in this situation the advantage went to the skinny kid. In KK however, both Johnny and Bobby should have won because they visibly had the advantage of physical strength, and they had years more training to result in better skills and technique than Daniel. The only possible advantage Daniel could have had was in attitude, and that seemed questionable. Given this, the producers should have built up Daniel in either physical strength or in technique, and technique would probably be easier to make believable to the audience.
Posted by Karate Kevin (Member # 291) on :
Jabeen it still sounds to me like Sam lost because he was out "techniqued" and out "attituded" by Kevin. It seems pretty clear that Kevin had built up a fighter's winning attitude. He was going to do whatever it took to win If he just tipped the scales slightly in his favor in "technique", then the fight victory was his. Also in a real street fight, if you realize that you need to carry "attitude" to win then I suggest 2 things, one of which Kevin did. First, go for the groin. Yeah you have to get beyond the ethical questions of taking that step. Doing this not only momentarily physically incapacitates your opponent, but it has a huge mental effect. Second, go for the nose - they are a huge exposure for bleeding. Your opponents attitude crashes when he sees his own blood pouring out of his face. I fought a kid once and about 15 minutes into a very close fight I knew I was out techniqued, and evenly matched in strength. I knew that if I didn't carry attitude, I was doomed. I used a punch to the groin, followed by an elbow to the back, and a kick to his face. What was a very close fight, suddenly was over in seconds.
Posted by Silverado (Member # 1388) on :
“Daniel San! … Karate here (mind), Karate here (Heart).Karate never here ( arms and legs)”
That´s basically the philosophy of Miyagui do karate training, on the contrary with John Kresse kai school, wich bases upon the strenght of his students and his dirty tournament tricks
In the movie we can see how Karate became Institutionalized when it was brought to occident. When Daniel asks Mr Miyagui what kind of belt he had,and he answers in kind of joke: “ Canvas you like?” Another example happens beggining the tournament when Miyagui didn´t have a clue what were the rules, and why his protegé needed an special color of belt to participate.
Obiously,Danny knew Johny were far more skilled (Current champion) and he still doubted if Miyagui advices would work out in a real competition,with good fighters not Freddies Fernandez ( eg. VIDAL the skillest one). And the Japanese wisdomly answers: Don´t rely on the quantity you know but the quality.
After three months of full time trainning , Danny was ready but wasn´t working with his first rival. His sensei realizes he had TOO MUCH in MIND and quickly summarized the pillars of his whole ancestor`s phylosophy: Remember defense (wax on wax off ) points come (concentrate), focus power (The inner strenght) Make good fight. I`d like to emphazise the last phrase,cause that`s what most Tainners say nowadays, to enjoy the game and avoid the pressure of loose or win.
He missed the last key and that came from the own Danny, “The surprise element” and that`s how he beat Johny at the end with an unknwon karate move called .....the crane.
Posted by Karate Kevin (Member # 291) on :
Ugh! That's exactly my point. You CAN NOT learn karate in 3 months! Not even with "full time" training. It takes years, even with the best instructors. KK was a great movie, but the end was over the top and unbelievable.
Posted by Silverado (Member # 1388) on :
What if Danny were a good fighter before he was trained by Miyagui,but he had the bad luck of meet a terrific skilled enemy like John,not to mention that then it was the whole gang against him.From the movie we know that he had fought a couple of times,and he knew some tricks when he punched johny in the mouth.Perhaps we wasn´t skilled enough to be a valley championship but maybe he was good with kicks,and decide to play soccer too
Posted by Karate Kevin (Member # 291) on :
That's a lot different than what I saw. I saw a kid that claimed he took a few karate classes at the Y, and yet showed no skills. Then at the tournament he still shows very little ability, and suddenly Johnny is so stupid he runs right into Daniel's crane move.
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